MACDONALD: That's right. What they're saying is because of the oil mergers they're saying that there is a lack of competition at one end of the hose and at the same time they're being priced out of the markets at the other end of the hose.

There is something like four companies who are — who are basically governing the gas supplies in 28 states. That's 2/3 of the supplies in 28 states. That's a lot of gas.

So basically, I mean people believe in the free enterprise system. The gas station owners want the free enterprise system. They're telling us that, "Wait a second. We feel consumers are getting gouged."

O'REILLY: All right. Now, if I own a gas station, Mr. Berger, all right, in Fort Lee, New Jersey, OK, I buy my gas from whom?

BIRGER: From a refiner like Valero or Sunoco or even a Chevron.

O'REILLY: All right. So I buy my gas. I have a deal with one of the big oil companies which refine the gasoline, correct?

BIRGER: Essentially.

O'REILLY: I can't bargain with them, can I? I can't say...

BIRGER: Of course you can. Of course you can.

O'REILLY: A little gas station, Rudy down there who's putting the gas in my tank, can say, "Hey, you, I'm not going to pay you that. I'm going to pay you this?"

BIRGER: Well, they can say, "Look, I'm not going to buy from your refinery. I'm going to buy from another."

O'REILLY: What if they're all the same price?

BIRGER: Here's the problem. Ten years ago, there was a ton of excess refining capacity in this country. There was — there were too much refineries — too many refineries and not enough demand for gas.

O'REILLY: And now there aren't as much.

BIRGER: And now all these refineries are running at maximum capacity.

O'REILLY: But I think they're price fixing. I think all the refineries are saying to Rudy at the gas station, "We're going to charge you this. And if you don't like it, you're not going to get any gas."

BIRGER: Let's say — let's say that all the major refineries got together and — obviously, this can't happen — but let's say they got together and reduced oil prices or gasoline prices by 20 percent.

O'REILLY: Which is what I suggested they do.

BIRGER: I know. So what do you think would happen? What I think would happen is you would see a huge increase in demand for gasoline, because obviously...

O'REILLY: We're getting into speculation now. But if they reduced it 20 percent, we would expect the consumer, which is — who is cutting back now, to keep it down. Maybe they wouldn't.

BIRGER: I think there'd be hoarding. I think — I think consumers would go out and hoard.

O'REILLY: That's not what our discussion is.

BIRGER: That would lead to shortages.

O'REILLY: Our discussion is today is that I believe — and I think you believe what I believe — that these major oil companies are telling their gas station people, all right, through the refineries, "This is what we're going to charge you, and we don't really care if you buy it or not. We'll sell it to somebody else."

MACDONALD: Here is the situation. Gas stations, 99 percent of them have a contractual obligation to sell the gas that they get from the different refiners. But they are saying, "Look, we want an open supply system where we can get our gas anywhere."

O'REILLY: They make big money, these gas stations?

MACDONALD: They don't make a lot of money. And the other issue is — this is important, even the Congressional Budget Office said recently in terms of the effect of Katrina on the economy, they said this will result in a temporary redistribution of income from consumers to the stockholders of refineries.

O'REILLY: All right. So the big five oil companies — and I'm going to give you both 20 seconds to wrap it up — are the ones all the way down this oil pipeline that are making the most money, correct?

MACDONALD: Correct.

O'REILLY: Correct?

BIRGER: Correct, but there's no antidote, I don't think.

O'REILLY: Well, I'll find one. I will find one.

BIRGER: I agree. I absolutely agree that the gas station owners are not the people to be concerned with.

O'REILLY: OK. The gas station owners ain't making it. Probably the tanker people ain't making it. It's the greedy oil companies that are making it. I think we should make an investigation into those people.

MACDONALD: Can I say one thing?

O'REILLY: Go ahead.

MACDONALD: It's important.

O'REILLY: Real quick.

MACDONALD: Senator Ron Wyden Democrat out of Oregon, is one of the only congressmen who's been asking for this investigation. He wants to see — he wants to see a little bit more sunlight as to how gas is actually priced.

O'REILLY: Absolutely. We need sunlight.

MACDONALD: Right.

O'REILLY: Because it's a national security situation. It is not an open market. It is a closed market.

Thank you both for coming in.