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I believe Timothy Clifford
我记得Timothy Clifford
who was the Director of the National Gallery until 2006
他在2006年之前还是国家美术馆的馆长
had recently found a Michelangelo,
他最近发现了一个米开朗基罗的雕刻
or identified a Michelangelo rather,
或者说他鉴定它是米开朗基罗的
and when they asked him about his old fashioned censorial methods
当他们问他有什么传统的鉴定方法时
he said something like
他是这样说的
"Can I not recognise my own wife across the breakfast table?"
"我会认不出坐在早餐桌对面的妻子吗?"
And that was something that struck him
他第一眼看到那个米基朗开罗雕刻时
when he first saw the Michelangelo.
就有这样的感觉
So do you have any thoughts about connoisseurship prior
你在做鉴定分析
to doing the forensic analysis
或者别的科学研究之前
and that kind or scientific detailing?
有没有什么鉴定想法了?
In a way that first jump of recognition
从某种程度上来说,第一眼看
which is a bit like being able to recognise
就像认出一个站在200码以外的
a certain member of your family 200 yards away
家庭成员一样
without you being able to say why you can do that.
你也说不出来你为什么会认得出
That was a starting point for me if you didn't get that
对我来说,那是一个起点,说具体点的话
and it's kind of interior thinking and it sort of grabs you.
它就像一个内心想法,把你给吸引住
But it's not enough.
但光是这样不够
I like to get all the science evidence lined up
我要把所有证据都排列出来
but I also like to adopt other criteria saying
我也想采用另一个标准
does this organically belong.
所有证据都统一吗
Does it tell us as much about Leonardo.
它能透露很多关于达芬奇的信息吗
We're trying to bring Leonardo to the portrait
我们想把达芬奇和画联系起来
so I like that big contextual support.
所以我需要历史背景证据
But at the end of the day if it collapses visually as a Leonardo,
但说到底,如果它看着都不像达芬奇的话
no amount of evidence helps.
再多的证据也没用
So it's a starting point and a confirmation.
那是一个起点,也是一个想法
It's not sufficient in itself but without that it goes,
光有这种感觉还不够,但连这种感觉都没有的话
and any bit of it
就什么都不行
if you get something in the technical evidence which is wrong,
如果有技术证据证明它不是
something in the historical evidence,
有历史证据证明它不是
say her costume is all wrong and comes out wrongly,
说她的服装不符合历史
then one negative bit collapses the whole case.
那么只要一点点反面证据,就能推翻整个鉴定
So it's part of this jigsaw of evidence.
所以这些证据就像拼图一样,它是其中一块
Interviewer: Was there any piece of evidence
有没有什么证据
at which point you became sure?
让你确定它就是达芬奇的?
Was there any one factor that was a deciding factor for you?
有没有什么因素让你觉得是决定因素的?
There's no point where you can identify,
你无法靠一个证据就能确定
it's cumulative.
这是一个渐进的过程
And since you're always trying to pull back
因为你要一直反复地质疑它
and not take or make assumptions to then
不能乱假设
make the evidence do what you want it to do.
不能让证据为你服务
There is that sense that it gradually accumulates
我觉得这个过程是渐进的
and at a certain point
在某个骨节眼上
it's a bit like a well designed piece of furniture
觉得它就像一个精心设计的家具
so you've got a cabinet with drawers in it.
你画上带抽屉的柜子
Gradually you get four legs rather than two legs
慢慢地从两条腿画到四条腿
and you gradually find that the drawers all fit in and out
慢慢地你发现所有抽屉能够自如地拉出推进
and it all holds together.
它能够直立起来
The whole edifice is solid so none of the drawers stick
整个家具非常坚固,没有抽屉卡住
and it's not got three legs and intermittently falls over.
没有三条腿,不会隔一阵子就掉一次
So it's that sort of construction involving all the evidence.
所以这是一个由所有证据组合起来的过程
In the old days
在以前
you would really have had just connoisseurship and documentation.
我们只有鉴定专家的意见和文献
Now we've got all the science that makes a terrific difference.
现在我们有各种各样科学方法,它们能发挥很大的作用
It doesn't prove it's by Leonardo
这不能证明这是达芬奇的
but it eliminates possibilities like it being a forgery etc.
但这些方法排除了其他可能,例如这是赝品的可能
And it tells you a lot about the medium.
它能告诉你很多关于材质的信息
And the medium in this case is important because it's on vellum.
这幅画的材质很重要,因为它是精制皮纸
