M: But I was talking about pupils from state schools going to the so-called elite universities. That didn't go up during your time.
男：但是我说的是去读所谓名牌大学的公立学校的学生，在反对党当政的那几年时间里没有增多。
W: The number from the state schools who are going to leading universities has increased over the years. But there's still an issue about ensuring the pupils from our state schools apply to going to the universities. And if you look at the Oxford figures, for example, you see that the percentage of students applying to Oxford from the state schools is about one percent, whereas from the private schools it's over 4.5 percent, so that you know that's the problem. It's expectations in the state system that have been driven down by this government over the years.
女：这些年来，公立学校去读一流大学的人数有所增加。但是，如何确保公立学校的学生申请上大学仍然是个问题。如果你看看牛津大学的数据，你会发现公立学校学生申请牛津大学的比例大约是1%，而私立学校的比例则超过4.5%，所以你知道这就是问题所在。那就是当今政府多年来一直在压低公立教育系统中的期望。
M: But again you had the opportunity to do that as well. I mean to get more children from state schools into those leading universities and it didn't happen.
男：但是你们的政府也有机会这么做。我的意思是让更多的公立学校学生进入那些一流大学，但你们的政府并没有这样做。
W: We have been getting more children from state schools into the leading universities and the universities have been working very hard at doing that. But I think there's going to be a real problem in the short term as a result of what the present government has been doing, because they have been giving a message that there are barriers there. And we've seen it today. There are reports already that Cambridge have been finding state school pupils ringing up and saying that they are not going to bother to apply now. That's the real damage the government has been doing. Far from opening opportunities, they are actually closing down opportunities.
女：我们一直在努力增加公立学校上一流大学的学生人数，而各个大学也一直在努力做到这一点。但我认为，由于当今政府的做法，短期内将会出现一个真正的问题，因为目前政府一直在传递这样一个信息，那就是公立学校升学存在着障碍。现在我们也看到了。有报道称，剑桥大学(Cambridge)已经发现公立学校的学生们打电话来，说他们现在不打算去申请了。这就是政府一直在做的事情。他们非但没有开放机会之门，反而在关闭这道大门。
M: Well, they'd argue with that of course. And what they would say is "one of the things we want to do is improve the standard of our schools". Now one of the ways they want to do it is to give the schools the opportunity to run themselves more completely than they are doing at the moment. To give schools more powers, exactly the same as you. You made a speech last night laying out the way you see the education system changing in this country. I see no difference here at all between you and them.
男：嗯，他们当然也不会同意这一点。他们会说，“我们就是想提高学校的标准。”现在他们提高学校标准的一个方式就是让学校有机会更全面地管理自身事务。给学校更多的权力，和你们的主张完全一样。你昨晚做了一个演讲，阐述了你如何看待这个国家教育体制的变化。我看你和他们之间没有什么不同。
W: There's a very great deal of difference actually. The present government talks about freedom for schools. It talks about getting money into schools. But if you look in the detail of what they are proposing, the reality is very different. We genuinely want to make schools free and give them the freedom to have all of the money to spend on what is going on in their schools.
女：实际上有很大的区别。现在的政府谈论学校的自由。它说要把钱投入学校。但如果你仔细观察他们的建议，情况就大不相同了。我们真诚地希望让学校自由，让他们有足够的自由，把所有的钱都花在学校里的事情上。
M: All of it?
W: Well, the government say in the future 85 pence in the pound will go to the schools. I want to make sure that every pound spent on schools is a pound spent in schools. I think schools should have the money and have the power to decide how to spend it because they know best what's in the interest of their pupils.
女：嗯，当今政府说未来每英镑将有85便士是给学校的。我们想确保花在教育上的每一英镑都花在学校的事务上。我认为学校应该掌握资金，有权力决定如何使用，因为他们最了解学生的利益所在。
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