It seems like one of the reasons this beef has captivated so many people is because yes, the content of what they're saying is salacious, but it's also touching on broader cultural themes like misogyny or just even this question of cultural appropriation that, you know, has been leveled and Drake is being criticized of that by Kendrick.

看起来这次嘻哈之争吸引了这么多人的原因之一是，是的，他们所说的内容是淫秽的，但它也触及了更广泛的文化主题，比如厌女症，甚至只是文化侵占的问题，你知道，德雷克正因此受到肯德里克的批评。

And It raises the question of, like, who is even allowed to make rap music and who's considered a real rapper.

这引发了一个问题，比如，谁制作说唱音乐，谁就被认为是真正的说唱歌手。

I'm wondering if that's also what you're seeing in your observation of what's going on.

我想知道这是不是也是你观察到的。

Yeah, I think that, like, you know, messenger matters a lot, too.

是的，我想，就像，你知道，信使也很重要。

So even to your point about who's allowed to make rap music, I think that Kendrick is the person who people are most willing to hear this from because he's got so much -- so many passes from forefathers and throughout his career has made such authentic hip-hop music.

所以，即使是关于谁可以制作说唱音乐的问题，我认为人们最愿意听到的名字是肯德里克，因为他有那么多--那么多先辈的传授，而且在他的整个职业生涯中，他制作的嘻哈音乐都是那么地道。

His critique of Drake as a cultural colonizer is not that he is being performatively Black.

他批评德雷克是一个文化殖民者，并不是说他在表演上是黑人风格。

It's that he isn't enveloping himself in his own culture.

而是因为他没有把自己融入在自己的文化中。

He's saying, "You are from Toronto.

他说：“你来自多伦多。

Be from Toronto.

从多伦多来。

Embrace that.

接受这一点。

Use what they have to be a rap superstar.

利用这成为一个说唱巨星。

Don't go to Memphis, Atlanta, Jamaica."

不要去孟菲斯、亚特兰大、牙买加。

But don't you think there's also been a critique of Drake's Blackness?

但你不认为德雷克身为黑人也受到了批评吗？

Yes.

是。

And that's such an interesting point because -- so, you look at Drake being biracial.

这是一个非常有趣的观点，因为--所以，你知道德雷克是混血儿。

It's not -- It's his Blackness in the sense of how comfortable is he in that.

这不是--这是他的黑人身份，是他对黑人身份的适应程度。

From interviews and from his music, you see that Kendrick reads that he's not very comfortable being a Black man.

从采访以及他的音乐中，你可以看到肯德里克捕捉到了他作为一个黑人并不是很舒服。

And that comes out in the music when you go from Black culture to Black culture in search of something more.

当你从一种黑人文化到另一种黑人文化，寻找更多的东西时，音乐中就会体现出这一点。

On the other hand, is there another view?

另一方面，有没有其他看法呢？

And I wonder how you're reading between the lines of what Drake is saying is that by defining and putting in a box and almost being the arbiter of what's considered authentic and who is, you know, Black enough or not, that that in of itself is problematic.

我想知道你是如何从字里行间读出德雷克的意思的，那就是，通过定义并放入一个盒子里，几乎成为什么被认为是真实的、谁是，你知道，足够黑或不够黑的仲裁者，这本身就是有问题的。

Yes.

是。

I mean, and even Drake will tell you when he goes to these different places, he meets with the people who pioneered those sounds, who are steeped in that culture and gets the go-ahead from them.

我的意思是，即使是德雷克也会告诉你，当他去这些不同的地方时，他会见了那些发声的先驱，他沉浸在那种文化中，并得到了他们的许可。

He talks to them.

他和他们交谈。

He pays his respects.

他表达了他的尊敬。

He pays his homage.

他表达了他的敬意。

Even when he does these hit records, he has those people on them, too.

即使当他制作这些热门唱片时，他也会有那些人的影子在上面。

Mm.

嗯。

So it's not like he's going in there sweeping up the culture and leaving.

所以他不会去那里扫荡文化然后离开。

He's actually helping and putting these things on a higher pedestal because he is, you know, the international rap star that he is.

他实际上是在帮助这些东西，并把这些东西放在更高的基座上，因为他是，你知道，他是国际说唱明星。

After the break, the history of rap beefs and whether this new one is good for hip-hop.

休息后，我们会谈说唱争斗的历史，以及这一新的是否有利于嘻哈。

We'll be right back.

我们马上就回来。

Joseph, can you put into perspective the role that rap beefs have had in hip-hop, and how long have they been around?

约瑟夫，你能正确看待说唱争斗在嘻哈中是什么样的存在吗？他们已经存在多久了？

Yeah, I think rap beefs have been around as long as rapping has.

是的，我认为说唱之争和说唱音乐一样存在很长时间了。

You know, when people talk about the origins of hip-hop in New York which started as people battling on a street corner, and then deejays came in and said, "My set is better than your set.

要知道，当人们谈论纽约嘻哈音乐的起源时，起初只是人们在街角打打闹闹，然后Deejays进来说："我的音乐比你的好听。

I can spin records better than you can spin records."

我转唱片比你转的还要好。

And I think that sort of competitiveness has pushed the genre forward in making more interesting music and saying more interesting things.

我认为这种竞争推动了这一流派在制作更有趣的音乐和说更有趣的事情方面向前发展。

So rap beef, whether not this explicitly, but the sense of competition is something that is as in-baked in hip-hop as a snare or a hi-hat is.

因此，说唱争斗，无论是否明示，但竞争意识在嘻哈音乐中就像小鼓和嘻哈乐器一样根深蒂固。