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Jindong Cai, 59, is an orchestra conductor and a professor at Stanford University. He has conducted many orchestras in China and has been a guest conductor at numerous orchestras in the United States since moving there in 1985. With his wife, the writer Sheila Melvin, he has written numerous articles on China and two books on music in China: “Rhapsody in Red: How Western Classical Music Became Chinese” and their latest, “Beethoven in China: How the Great Composer Became an Icon in the People’s Republic.”
蔡金东是管弦乐团指挥，斯坦福大学教授。59岁的他曾在中国指挥过许多乐团，自1985移居美国以来，在美国许多乐团做过客座指挥。他的妻子是作家梅文诗(Sheila Melvin)，他和妻子写了许多关于中国的文章，还写过两本关于中国音乐的书，一本是《红色狂想曲：西方古典音乐在中国》(Rhapsody in Red: How Western Classical Music Became Chinese)，另一本是最新的《贝多芬在中国：这位伟大作曲家如何在人民共和国成为偶像》(Beethoven in China: How the Great Composer Became an Icon in the People’s Republic)。
During a visit to his native Beijing, Mr. Cai discussed Beethoven, classical music and why China has so many new concert halls.
在访问家乡北京期间，蔡金东谈论了贝多芬、古典音乐，以及中国为什么有这么多新建的音乐厅。
Q. Chinese only began listening to and performing Western classical music in the 1920s. And yet Beethoven was popular even before he was heard. Why was that?
问：中国人在20世纪20年代才开始欣赏和演奏西方古典音乐，然而贝多芬的名字在这之前就广为人知了。这是为什么呢？
A. Beethoven was introduced to China by a writer named Li Shutong, who wrote an essay about Beethoven in 1907 and even made a charcoal drawing of him. He admired Beethoven’s fighting spirit, and thought that this was what China needed.
答：贝多芬是由一位名叫李叔同的作家介绍到中国的，他在1907年写过一篇关于贝多芬的文章，甚至还画了一幅贝多芬的素描。他钦佩贝多芬的奋斗精神，认为这正是中国所需要的。
Q. Had Li ever heard Beethoven?
问：李叔同听过贝多芬的作品吗？
A. Probably not. He studied in Japan, but it’s not clear he even heard him there. It was Beethoven’s spirit and life story he admired.
答：可能没有。他在日本学习过，但不清楚他在那儿有没有听过贝多芬的作品。他钦佩的是贝多芬的精神和生平。
Q. When was Beethoven first heard in China?
问：贝多芬的作品第一次在中国演奏是什么时候？
A. Beethoven was first performed by the Shanghai Municipal Orchestra — now the Shanghai Symphony — in 1911. But that was an all-foreigner orchestra and Chinese were not allowed to attend its concerts until 1925. So the first time that Beethoven was played by and for Chinese was thanks to Xiao Youmei. He was a follower of Sun Yat-sen and later got a Ph.D in music at Leipzig University in Germany. He returned to China in about 1919 and the great educator Cai Yuanpei asked him to start an orchestra at Peking University. He created the Peking University Conservatory, and in 1922, the Peking University Orchestra performed the second movement of the Fifth Symphony and the first movement of the Sixth Symphony. They only had 15 musicians, but that can sound pretty good.
答：最早演奏贝多芬的是上海工部局乐队(Shanghai Municipal Orchestra)，也就是现在的上海交响乐团，那是在1911年。不过那是个完全由外国人组成的乐团，1925年之前不允许中国人观看他们的音乐会。所以贝多芬作品第一次面向中国人、由中国人演奏，要归功于萧友梅。萧友梅是孙中山的追随者，后来在德国莱比锡大学(Leipzig University)拿到了音乐博士学位。他大约在1919年回到中国，伟大的教育家蔡元培请他在北京大学组建一支管弦乐队。他创办了北京大学音乐传习所(Peking University Conservatory)，1922年，北京大学管弦乐队演奏了《第五交响曲》的第二乐章和《第六交响曲》的第一乐章。他们只有15个音乐家，但听起来可能很不错。
Q. And this is what you performed recently in Beijing? How was it?
问：您最近在北京的表演就是这样的吧？演出怎么样？
A. Yes, we recreated this 1922 performance of Beethoven. We did it in the Stanford Center at Peking University, with 15 musicians from the Peking University Orchestra. It was something like time travel and it was very magical. We projected an image of the original orchestra — all its players were wearing changpao magua, traditional Chinese robes — and we performed in front of it. The orchestra was small, but it captured the same spirit as a big orchestra. And of course, when Beethoven was alive, the size of an orchestra was much smaller, maybe around 30 people.
答：是的，我们再现了1922年那场贝多芬作品的演出。我们和北京大学管弦乐队的15名音乐家，在北大斯坦福中心进行了演出。有点儿像穿越时空，非常神奇。我们展示出原来乐队的图像——所有的演奏者都穿着中国传统的长袍马褂——然后我们在图像前面表演。乐团人很少，但它体现了和大乐团一样的精神。当然，贝多芬在世的时候，管弦乐队的规模要小得多，可能有30人左右。
Q. And since then, Beethoven has become the symbol of classical music in China. You write about how when Kissinger visited in 1971, they had to bring musicians back from the countryside, where they had been exiled in the Cultural Revolution.
问：从那以后，贝多芬在中国已经成为古典音乐的象征。你写过1971年基辛格(Kissinger)访华时，他们不得不把文革时期下放到农村的音乐家召回的事情。
A. Yes, they had a debate over what symphony to play. The conductor, Li Delun, wanted the Fifth, but this was about “fate,” and in Communist China you couldn’t say that fate existed.
答：是的，他们当时争论要演奏什么交响曲。指挥家李德伦希望演奏《第五交响曲》，但这首交响曲是关于“命运”的，而在共产主义的中国，你不能说存在命运。
So then he suggested the Third, but that was the “Eroica,” which the leftists said was “about” Napoleon. [Beethoven had originally dedicated it to Napoleon, although he later retracted this when Napoleon declared himself emperor.] So they settled on the Sixth — the “Pastoral.” That was okay because it was about rural life. Kissinger said it was the worst Sixth he had ever heard.
于是他建议演奏《第三交响曲》，但那首是“英雄”(Eroica)，而左派说那是“关于”拿破仑(Napoleon)的。［贝多芬原本将这首交响曲献给了拿破仑，不过后来当拿破仑自称皇帝时，他收回了这个说法。］因此他们决定演奏《第六交响曲》——“田园”。这没有问题，因为它是关于农村生活的。基辛格说那是他有生以来听到的最糟糕的第六交响曲。
Q. When did you first hear Beethoven?
问：你第一次听贝多芬是什么时候？
A. That was also in the Cultural Revolution. It was 1969 and a friend said, ‘Come to my home. I’ve got something.’ He had an old, hand-cranked record player, 78 r.p.m.s and you had to change the needle regularly. It was either the Fourth or the Fifth Symphony.
答：也是在文革时期。那是1969年，一个朋友说，‘来我家，我有好东西给你听’。他有一台老式的手摇唱机，每分钟78转而且还得定期更换针头。那是第四或第五交响曲。
I didn’t know Beethoven then. I just saw the name. It was Victor label, Japanese. It was amazing. How come so many things were sounding at the same time? The complexity and power of the music really struck me, since I was used to Chinese music with a one-line melody.
那时我还不知道贝多芬，那是我第一次看到这个名字，是日本的“胜利”(Victor)厂牌出的。真是令人惊奇，如此多的乐器怎么能在同一时间响起？那段音乐的复杂性和力量，确实打动了我，因为我之前习惯的是单旋律的中国音乐。
Q. Why was Beethoven the focal point of so much struggle and diplomacy?
问：为什么贝多芬会成为这么多斗争和外交的焦点？
A. Chinese people believe that to succeed you have to chi ku [literally “eat bitterness,” meaning endure hardship]. He fit the bill. He struggled all the time and then he succeeded. This made him popular, as famous in China as Shakespeare in literature or Darwin in the sciences.
答：中国人认为要想成功，就必须“吃苦”［字面义是“吃苦的东西”，意思是承受艰辛］。他刚好符合要求，他一直以来都在同命运斗争，最后他成功了。这让他很受欢迎，在中国就如同文学方面的莎士比亚，或者科学方面的达尔文一样著名。
Q. Mao didn’t ban Western classical music.
问：毛泽东并没有禁止西方古典音乐。
A. In 1957, Mao invited musicians for a talk in Zhongnanhai [the leadership compound in Beijing]. He said, we need foreign things, but they should serve China.
答：1957年，毛泽东邀请音乐家到中南海［国家领导人在北京的居住区］座谈。他说，我们需要外国的东西，但应该服务于中国。
This goes back to his 1942 talk on arts in Yan’an. Art had to serve politics. Obviously, it has created many problems, but one positive effect is that Chinese artists want their music to be understood by people.
这种观点可以追溯到1942年，他在延安文艺座谈会上的讲话，艺术必须为政治服务。很明显，这产生了许多的问题，但其中的一个积极影响是，中国艺术家希望他们的音乐能被人们所理解。
Q. And you see a flourishing musical scene here.
问：于是你在这里看到音乐界蓬勃发展。
A. China probably has the most composers in the world who make a living by composing. In America it’s not possible. Almost no one does that. You have to teach or do something else.
答：中国通过作曲来维生的作曲家可能是世界上最多的。在美国，这是不可能的。几乎没有人做得到，你要教学或做其他事。
In China, there are many new concert halls, and that has created new orchestras and they want to stage premieres. So there’s a huge demand for new music. It might just be folk music or arrangements of it, or a piece for political purposes or for tourism. Every city wants a symphony or an opera that spotlights its history or famous sites, for tourism purposes. It’s all mixed up together.
在中国有很多新的音乐厅，这导致了新乐团的组建，而他们期待进行舞台首演。因此，新的音乐作品有巨大的市场需求。它可能只是民间音乐，或对民间音乐的改编，或是用于政治或旅游目的的音乐作品。出于促进旅游的目的，每个城市都想要编排交响乐或歌剧，彰显它的历史和名胜。这一切都混杂在一起。
Q. What about the quality of these new pieces?
问：那么这些新作品的质量如何？
A. The quality is a big issue. It’s state-driven. They get commissions from the government. Composers say: “I can get 200,000 renminbi for a new piece. Do you think I can refuse it?” But they think that they can do that and do their serious music on the side. And some do succeed at this.
答：质量是个大问题。这是国家推动的，他们从政府那里接任务。作曲家会想，“一部新作品我可以得到20万元人民币。你觉得我能拒绝吗？”但他们认为他们可以一边做这些，一边业余做他们的严肃音乐。而一些人确实成功做到了这一点。
Q. You just came from Zhengzhou, the capital of Henan Province. Tell us about that.
问：你刚刚从郑州回来，给我们讲讲这次行程吧。
A. They just built a new concert hall and have a symphony orchestra. To me, this is phenomenal. Zhengzhou is a real second-tier city, but now it’s got this wonderful hall.
答：他们刚刚建造了一个新的音乐厅并组建了一个交响乐团。对我来说，这是很惊人的。郑州是一个真正的二线城市，但现在它有了一个非常棒的音乐厅。
But, of course, the buildings are easy. The leaders can point to them as accomplishments. The human side is harder.
但是当然，建造音乐厅很容易。领导人可以将它们视为政绩，而人的因素就困难多了。
Q. What’s the challenge?
问：挑战是什么？
A. It’s education. To play a piece well, you have to look at the notation and think about the music. The orchestras, the young people — they can do that. They can play anything technically, but it’s often just notes.
答：教育。要想把一部作品演奏好，一定要看着乐谱，并仔细地思考音乐。那些乐团，那些年轻人——他们能做到这一点。从技术上讲，他们可以演奏任何乐曲，但往往只是把乐谱弹奏出来。
You also have to know how to present the piece and you need an idea of the meaning. You need a theory to support your interpretation, and then you can convince people that it should be played in this fashion. Then the orchestra can be united by one idea.
你还必须懂得如何呈现作品，需要了解作品的意义。你需要一套理论来支撑你的理解，然后你才能让人们信服，应该以这种方式来演奏。然后乐团才能通过同一种理解，凝聚成一个整体。
If the conductor doesn’t have an idea, then they just play what they want. Much of this is related to conductor, but also to basic education in conservatory. We don’t teach enough style or enough history.
如果指挥没有一种理解，那他们就只会随心所愿地演奏了。这其中很大一部分和指挥有关，但也和音乐学校的基础教育有关。我们传授的风格和历史不够。
Q. Can this be improved?
问：这个方面能改善吗？
A. Yes, it is getting much better. China has some very strong orchestras in its major cities and is building new conservatories at an amazing rate. There’s a new conservatory in Hangzhou that is supposed to have 5,000 students in 10 years. Five thousand! And Harbin is creating one. You look at the buildings. The Harbin one is amazing. It’s like the Pentagon. An incredible building, an incredible facility.
答：能，现在好多了。中国的大城市有一些非常有实力的乐团，中国也在以惊人的速度新建音乐学院。杭州就新建了一所音乐学院，10年后能培养出5000名学生。5000名呐！哈尔滨也正在建一所学校。看看那些学校的建筑。哈尔滨那栋楼令人惊叹，像五角大楼。建筑设施都特别棒。
Q. And it all started with Beethoven.
问：所有这一切都是从贝多芬开始的。
A. Yes.
答：是的。
